#163335  by lovetoboogie
 Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:56 pm
It was told to me by someone who was at alot of shows back then...and someone who has some sense of gear, Garcia was loud! He pushed those Twins hard, biased hot most likely. I can get that very Bertha lead tone with my Les Paul Standard and/or my Les Paul Special with a stock Twin at 8 ( tone controls 10/5/1 Treb/Mid/Bass) guitar in the neck and/or bridge pup, guitar tone rolled back near the end. The key is running the treble wide open on the amp and rolling your guitar tone off to just that sweet spot. All my Gibson's are stock, no mods...and it really sounds like heaven. I use the neck pup for that Hard to Handle tone...
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 #163337  by hippieguy1954
 Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:12 am
Your friend is correct. I was at several early 70's shows also. No McIntosh amps. All Fenders. Jerry using the infamous three twins and two 4x12 cabs all tie died and matching. Jerry (and the rest of the band) were playing at enormous volumes as they continued to do for the duration. This has been discussed before a lot. To get all the aspects of Jerry's tone, it has to be very loud, but that doesn't work for most folks due to venue size. That is where the compromises begin. There are threads concerning "scaled down Jerry rigs". Some feel the tone they get with alternative amps with less power is close enough etc. Some use a always on slight dirt pedal such as the Earth Drive. Some use a Blues jr. or other lower wattage amps. IMHO, to get true Jerry tone without any compromises, regardless of the era you have to be at enormous volume and using the same gear.
This is not everyones opinion. It's the old "do you hear what I hear?" thing.
 #163338  by lovetoboogie
 Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:44 am
hippieguy1954 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:12 am
Your friend is correct. I was at several early 70's shows also. No McIntosh amps. All Fenders. Jerry using the infamous three twins and two 4x12 cabs all tie died and matching. Jerry (and the rest of the band) were playing at enormous volumes as they continued to do for the duration. This has been discussed before a lot. To get all the aspects of Jerry's tone, it has to be very loud, but that doesn't work for most folks due to venue size. That is where the compromises begin. There are threads concerning "scaled down Jerry rigs". Some feel the tone they get with alternative amps with less power is close enough etc. Some use a always on slight dirt pedal such as the Earth Drive. Some use a Blues jr. or other lower wattage amps. IMHO, to get true Jerry tone without any compromises, regardless of the era you have to be at enormous volume and using the same gear.
This is not everyones opinion. It's the old "do you hear what I hear?" thing.
Totally agree...I can't go into every gig with the Twin... As a trade off I use one of my own 60-watt combos that I build or a very lovely 67' Pro Reverb loaded with a pair of K120's which does a deceivingly excellent job. The tube rectifier of the Pro adds that squishy compression like feel of Twin being pushed hard.
 #163340  by 8-6-71 for me
 Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:49 am
hippieguy1954 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:12 am
That is where the compromises begin. There are threads concerning "scaled down Jerry rigs". Some feel the tone they get with alternative amps with less power is close enough etc. Some use a always on slight dirt pedal such as the Earth Drive.
yes, the compromise... I have three Twins, curiously enough, but running them at 7 is absolutely deafening. Disconnecting a speaker or pulling tubes seems self defeating; it's a vicious circle. But daisy chaining them together last night was the biggest "a-ha" moment so far. I have the earth drive and have not been happy w putting that in front. Trying the Fulltone and Pigtronix fat boost this week.
 #163346  by TI4-1009
 Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:12 pm
hippieguy1954 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:12 am
Your friend is correct. I was at several early 70's shows also. ... Jerry (and the rest of the band) were playing at enormous volumes as they continued to do for the duration.
Yup, same here. I used to try and get up front on the floor (mostly General Admission back then) as long as I could stand it. But it didn't take long for my ears to go into "overdrive" so the sound would break up in my head and I'd have to retreat to the seats about halfway back so I could hear clearly again.

It was glorious for as long as I could take it- and I'm sure I'm still paying for it. WHAT????
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 #163349  by caspersvapors
 Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:12 pm
One thing to consider with the vintage twin thing, is the wall voltages back then were significantly lower than they are today. Twins are already ungodly loud, and today's wall voltages arent doing anything to help that. Get a variac or brown box, lower the voltage to Leo's spec, put in less stout 6L6s, or pull 2 of em, and/or play mismatched into one speaker, etc, that will get you closer to driving the Twin. But its still going to be defeaning.
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 #163354  by hippieguy1954
 Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:16 am
TI4-1009 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:12 pm
hippieguy1954 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:12 am
Your friend is correct. I was at several early 70's shows also. ... Jerry (and the rest of the band) were playing at enormous volumes as they continued to do for the duration.
Yup, same here. I used to try and get up front on the floor (mostly General Admission back then) as long as I could stand it. But it didn't take long for my ears to go into "overdrive" so the sound would break up in my head and I'd have to retreat to the seats about halfway back so I could hear clearly again.

It was glorious for as long as I could take it- and I'm sure I'm still paying for it. WHAT????
It always amazed me how so many folks stayed up front. I did the same as you to check it out and see the gear then always went back about a hundred feet. Later on they started using much higher stages and that made a huge difference in being up front.
 #163355  by hippieguy1954
 Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:21 am
8-6-71 for me wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:49 am
hippieguy1954 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:12 am
That is where the compromises begin. There are threads concerning "scaled down Jerry rigs". Some feel the tone they get with alternative amps with less power is close enough etc. Some use a always on slight dirt pedal such as the Earth Drive.
yes, the compromise... I have three Twins, curiously enough, but running them at 7 is absolutely deafening .
Not bad in a large hall or outside :wink:
 #163369  by mgbills
 Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:18 pm
I think it would be interesting to test a Twin with the known Zener mod only.

My Twin was modded beyond just that phase, but that was a known change relevant to the time.

If memory serves...
 #163370  by Jon S.
 Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:47 am
Is it not the truth that, in the end there's just a song?

Myself, I'm a compromising type of guy, generally. I apply this in my music by striving to preserve my hearing, avoid debilitating back pain (let us agree, by the way, that putting down or dismissing anyone for needing to address personal physical limitations or handicaps is never cool), and making loading and unloading for a gig or jam a pleasure, not a chore.

Not to mention, if we can't sound fine with an SMS or FYD preamp, an MC50, and a 1X12 cab with the right speaker, do we really believe that "upgrading" to heavier equipment will make or break our experience (unless we need extreme volume and can't mike our cabs).
 #163372  by waldo041
 Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:59 am
mgbills wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:18 pm
I think it would be interesting to test a Twin with the known Zener mod only.

My Twin was modded beyond just that phase, but that was a known change relevant to the time.

If memory serves...
If you want to get to the minutiae of jerrys early 70's gear, don't forget the pot tapers as well as the brilliant notion marty suggested that you might want to look into that zener mod since it does tell you pretty much exactly how they were biasing those twins! But wtf do i know!

Oh and yes, pickups and a short cable should also be noted. That and probably the transformer based splitter box both Jerry and Bobby are seen using to input all 3 from one source instead of daisy chaining the amps.

More to it, enough for now. :D

~waldo
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 #163374  by 8-6-71 for me
 Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:23 pm
Gr8fulCadi wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:48 am
Unless I’m missing it somewhere, what guitar and pickups are you using?
Before I figured out that the tv yellow LP special was the guitar in use during July-August-ish '71, I had a 71 LP Deluxe w mini humbuckers, based on the photos from Bob Marks of 8/14 and 8/15 shows. My first guitar for this project was a '77 reissue of the 59 dc tv yellow LP w P-90s. The second guitar was a "77-55", a 1977 reissue of the single cut version of the same, but with the fatter 50's neck (and at least on this one, better pickups). The final version is an actual 1959 that was basically just the wood when I bought it, but with two replacement pickups- a '52 and a '54 P-90 out of a gold top.

Open to suggestion!
Last edited by 8-6-71 for me on Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.