#161671  by tcsned
 Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:21 am
Some good points made here - an ideal Jerry rig, as Waldo points out, would indeed need the Mac, JBLs, modded Twin, guitar with DiMarzios, etc. If that isn't possible for financial or other reasons then there are other ways of getting a good tone for playing Dead music. Is using a MosVALVE (or a Carvin or a Rocktron or whatever) gonna be perfect? No. I use mine as a backup and not my main power amp for a reason. That being said, it ain't half bad and not noticeable by 99% of the people in the audience. I have been playing a pretty close to Jerry rig for the last 5 years, SMS, Mac, Wolf or Cocobolo/Maple Tele with DiMarzios, Beyma Liberty speakers instead of JBLs (one day I may get a pair of E120s). It can sound pretty damn close to Jerry's tone if I am focused on playing like Jerry. Usually, I just play and kinda forget about sounding like this or that and just try to play what feels right to play at that moment and it usually isn't all that Jerry-ish other than approach.

I would say, other than the DiMarzio pickups I like the sound of this rig for every style of music I play. The previous 25+ years I've been playing Dead music I've used a Les Paul through a Boogie, a PRS, a Strat, a Warmoth WGD with Joe Bardens and so on through a Twin, Marshall, other Boogies, and with a direct amp simulator. I really like the Mac/SMS tone better than all the other things I've used and not necessarily because I sound more like Jerry using it. It's a sweet and clean palette for adding effects for texture or just to play clean. Jerry was a smart guy and he had a crew of smart guys help him achieve a badass tone. The OBEL is genius and should be something all folks who use stompboxes on stage should consider. The one Jerry piece of equipment that I have grown to not be a fan of are the DiMarzio pickups. I am eventually going to swap pickups in my Wolf to something else.

Well damn, I started with a point to all of this but my ADD has me all over the place. In short, there's a lot of ways to play and appreciate Grateful Dead music. It's totally cool to be true to the equipment and playing styles it's also cool to do weird shit and experiment with other things. If you don't have the $$ to buy all the toys then there's stuff you can get cheaper that will get you close. I think I have found my niche in my little corner of the world. Find yours and enjoy!
 #161673  by Jon S.
 Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:44 pm
To the OP - I'm trying to assist you, believe me!

When you lack the ideal, you make the best of what's around.

An hour ago, I set up my McI and Carvin rigs side-by-side and dialed them in as close as possible. Are they identical sounding? Of course not. But they both sound good - more than pleasing, I believe, for most audiences (some here perhaps excepted).

The first pic is my two rigs side by side, followed by two closeups so you can see the precise settings on each. Is this a perfectly scientific comparison? No, but the results may still be helpful to people like the OP who lack the finances to upgrade immediately. The preamps are by different makers but both are BFTRs with, at a minimum, the mods Wald had up on his web page before he decided he didn't want to share them for free anymore and took them down. Both rigs run through SSP 1X12 cabs. I used the same heavily modded USA '99 Reverend Avenger guitar using the middle 6.0K Dan Armstrong Strat PUP, OBEL, and on-board buffer (FWIW, it's a CAE buffer - I have Wald's version in another guitar - both do precisely what they're supposed to do). The McI rig is through an E120, the Carvin rig through a K120. I toggled various effects (Line 6 M13) on and off during the experiment but tried each effect set through both rigs so we can ignore those for now. Very important for the Carvin poweramp - do not push in the EQ expander. That thins out its tone and the Carvin unit is already intrinsically less full sounding than the McI (which will explain the different settings you'll note below).

Again, this isn't a perfectly controlled scientific experiment. And maybe my hearing is shot (it's actually not except for a slight dip at 4K Hz but the listener is always a variable, too). But if you currently own a Carvin and want a McI but can't immediately afford one, know that you can set your Carvin so as to get close (or "closer," depending on your perspective) to a McI IF you're willing to let go of any preconceived notions as to where your preamp controls "should" (based on Jerry's own rig) be set and simply trust your ears.

Hope this helps. I'll be out of pocket starting tomorrow for a while but you can try a PM if you like, I believe I'm still set up to be "pinged" when I get one.

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tcsned liked this
 #161675  by Gr8fulCadi
 Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:55 pm
A lot of good points from EVERYONE in this thread.

As stated, a few different power amps will indeed work and do jus fine. I’ve used a tubeworks 1160 (same as MosValve 962) with an SMS and that worked pretty damn good!! But there’s only 1 power amp which will emulate Jerry to a T, and that is of course a McIntosh. If one wants to sit in their basement and jam and have it sound so authentic that it puts an insta-grin on their face (me) then a modded twin, or SMS, McIntosh, JBL’s and Jerry style guitar is pretty much a must, among other pieces as well.
I do understand money constraints and such that some may have when buying gear, so there is no wrong piece of equipment here to substitute, pre or power amp or speakers. Just know that there will be a difference in tone and especially feel, when going with other alternatives.

But on the flip side, I didn’t get this rig to capture my sound or tone, I got it to sound Just like Jerry. I have 3 other amps and several axes that if I was a mega musician touring everywhere I’d change up a few things to be unique. But, Im a basement warrior (dying to get back into a band) and at this stage in my life, I like to pick up my Phiga Eagle, turn on my Meastro Twin and emulate my favorite musician of all time. I think if one is in an original band, writing their own tunes, touring and such, then an EXACT Jerry rig may be an odd choice to some and to others not. But folks that are specifically doing Jerry/Dead cover bands for fun, xtra $$, basement warrior, then no harm in having OR recommending the most Jerry-type of rig, not boring imo.
TeeJay liked this
 #161676  by kurt eye
 Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:22 am
For what its worth here's a Carvin DCM200L vs Mac MC 250 A/B Test

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 #161685  by strumminsix
 Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:34 am
The only thing more expense than buying the right and high quality piece the first time is buying multiple times. This is my mentality with guitar gear, home improvement stuff, Jeep gear. Unless you're broke down, you're almost always better off waiting. Buy once, cry once.
tcsned, tommybo liked this
 #161686  by Bobbyg
 Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:18 am
Jon S.....

Nice looking set-ups.....turn your phone on and record some licks so we can hear the difference in your rigs!
 #161687  by Jon S.
 Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:25 am
[Sorry, computer issues today. :oops: ]
Last edited by Jon S. on Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
 #161688  by Jon S.
 Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:37 am
Gr8fulCadi wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:55 pm
A lot of good points from EVERYONE in this thread.

ooo

But folks that are specifically doing Jerry/Dead cover bands for fun, xtra $$, basement warrior, then no harm in having OR recommending the most Jerry-type of rig, not boring imo.
First, thank you for your kind words now to everyone.

In case your last comment was addressed to me, in fairness, I don't believe I said here - if I did, I misspoke and apologize - that having or recommending the most Jerry-type rig is boring. That would be a strange sentiment coming from me as I, myself, have one. What I actually posted was, " It would be a boring world where everyone thinks and plays identically." What I was trying to rebut was what feels like sometimes the Jerry gear equivalent of that man comes on to tell me how white my shirts can be but he can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me - I'm no more fan of it's all or nothing in gear than I am in politics and religion, it's just a box of rain.

In another thread today, I posted,

"[E]ven putting the ubiquitous Dead tribute shows and dedicated cover bands aside, what continues to amaze me is how many "regular" bands these days have worked Dead tunes into their repertoire, coming from a combination of digging the songs and knowing there's a serious market segment for the music.

As just one example, a Baltimore friend has a funk/soul/fusion jazz band. The last gig I caught, they'd worked Eyes and Fire into their set list. These guys aren't Deadheads by any stretch. They make zero effort to "get the gear right" nor do they care if their arrangements are close or far to the Dead's. They simply, as I said, dig the songs and know that, at most of their venues, they'll be some of us who'll totally dig the effort!

I always make it a point, at such bands' gigs, in between sets, to approach the bands, thank them for the Dead, and request more as I feel that bands like these, in the long run, will do as much for keeping the flame alive as the tribute and dedicated cover bands (who, of course, are also appreciated)."

To me, the Dead spirit leans towards more inclusiveness, not less, and the most important things are the music and the community. Everything else is commentary.
Last edited by Jon S. on Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
 #161689  by Jon S.
 Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:39 am
[Oops - another slip, sorry. :oops: ]
 #161690  by Jon S.
 Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:46 am
kurt eye wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:22 am
For what its worth here's a Carvin DCM200L vs Mac MC 250 A/B Test

Thanks for sharing. It's very hard to tell from the video but it look like he may have had the EQ Expander button "in" for the comparison (if yes, IMO, the comparison is useless).
Last edited by Jon S. on Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #161691  by Hitime
 Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:49 am
I have used a carvin and it's close enough ,i got a quilter tone block 201 it is much better than the carvin and very light weight i am talking about using it with a sms jg pre amp,never used a Mac but did try a tube audiophile amp and was impressed .the tone block is made for guitar the carvin is used a lot for pa ? I think,if you can get some jerry tone on a acoustic that you should get it on a electric ,I saw a video of jerry playing with Sammy Hagar on a fender jag? Or something and it looked like a Roland jc twin amp and sounded like jerry to me ,if you look around you can get a tone block 201 used cheap.
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 #161692  by Jon S.
 Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:58 am
Bobbyg wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:18 am
Jon S.....

Nice looking set-ups.....turn your phone on and record some licks so we can hear the difference in your rigs!
I actually have posted clips here before but have very few and in any event grew tired of being jumped on afterwards here for being an "amateur" - which I certainly am, in the truest spirit of the word from its French and Latin roots meaning "lover of," as I play Grateful Dead not for money, confirmation, or acclaim, but simply because I love it. (In any event, there will always be at least some Dickey Betts in my playing no matter what - blame my formative years ;) ).

I won't be able to focus on clips until August but will ask a friend then to help me videotape and post a comparison. For now, in case helpful, the area cellphone video below is me on my SMS through a Rocktron Velocity 300 (intro. licks and lead at 4:00 might be two suitable place for quickly sampling the tone). And the speakers aren't JBLs, BTW (I hadn't copped mine yet).

Last edited by Jon S. on Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 #161693  by Jon S.
 Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:03 pm
Hitime wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:49 am
I have used a carvin and it's close enough ,i got a quilter tone block 201 it is much better than the carvin and very light weight i am talking about using it with a sms jg pre amp,never used a Mac but did try a tube audiophile amp and was impressed .the tone block is made for guitar the carvin is used a lot for pa ? I think,if you can get some jerry tone on a acoustic that you should get it on a electric ,I saw a video of jerry playing with Sammy Hagar on a fender jag? Or something and it looked like a Roland jc twin amp and sounded like jerry to me ,if you look around you can get a tone block 201 used cheap.
I'm hearing many compliments on the Tone Block.

What about the DV Mark Raw Dawg? It looks like it could work for Dead for someone wanting a new, cheap, small, light, clean 150-250W head. At not more than the price of many pedals, I'm considering copping one as my next "experiment."

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 #161697  by waldo041
 Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:20 pm
It is worth repeating, An Authentic sounding JG Rig is not cheap nor is it light (his guitars were heavy and so were his strings and picks!). Most guys/gals here at RuKind have some sort of sample of what their JG tone sounds like. If it is not close, why would you take their advice?

~waldo
 #161701  by aiq
 Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:58 am
Lots of ideas and that is good as the little mutations are what keeps evolution moving.

I view all this as just good tone representative of what is called jamband guitar sound.

I have a Jerryfied Firebird, a 65 DeluxeAmp, last year before reverb, with a JBL D 123, a 65 Bandmaster, a 68 Bassman. The heads are played into a 1x12 with Cali or 1x12 with D120F. If I ever need the big sound again (unlikely at this juncture) I would use both heads into both cabs.

So more of a Kimock thing with a nod to Jerry style.

The Kemper will kill us all anyway. :-)