[strumminsix]

I don't understand your comment about a kick drum beat without a bass note being tiring... I like to lock in with it, I'll even line up on stage where I can see it if possible - but sometimes it's nice to leave some space or provide some contrast to what they're doing, otherwise you just become either overbearing or background noise.

Too often when folks get too "Phlly" especially in singe drummer bands they sound disjointed.

[Rusty the Scoob]

That sounds like just bad musicianship to me... even if you're Phil himself there are times to let yourself fade into the background. Really you should be hidden 80% of time at least. And when you choose to step out front a little, do it only when you have a good idea that doesn't clash with an idea that somebody else is having.

Even during the times when you're in the background it's ok to be doing something interesting, just make sure that it's less noticeable than whoever's in the lead at the moment.

[tcsned]

That sounds like just bad musicianship to me... even if you're Phil himself there are times to let yourself fade into the background. Really you should be hidden 80% of time at least. And when you choose to step out front a little, do it only when you have a good idea that doesn't clash with an idea that somebody else is having.

Even during the times when you're in the background it's ok to be doing something interesting, just make sure that it's less noticeable than whoever's in the lead at the moment.

+1

[jester536]

I think both Bob and Phil are amazing musicians...but this might change the direction a bit...I love the space and the way they tied songs together in the late 70"s. So here's my question...was it Keith that made so much of that happen? Afterwards, it never quite seemed as fluid as it did in those days. Any thoughts?

[Tennessee Jedi]

I think both Bob and Phil are amazing musicians...but this might change the direction a bit...I love the space and the way they tied songs together in the late 70"s. So here's my question...was it Keith that made so much of that happen? Afterwards, it never quite seemed as fluid as it did in those days. Any thoughts?

Kieth was almost a background kinda guy ... sometimes he's just mixed so low as to almost be invisible.
By the time they got Brent they were moving into a more structured format ....
Love Kieth's early years with the band

[strumminsix]

That sounds like just bad musicianship to me... even if you're Phil himself there are times to let yourself fade into the background. Really you should be hidden 80% of time at least. And when you choose to step out front a little, do it only when you have a good idea that doesn't clash with an idea that somebody else is having.

Even during the times when you're in the background it's ok to be doing something interesting, just make sure that it's less noticeable than whoever's in the lead at the moment.

I think alot of folks goto emulate Phil by being a lead instrument and not as linked to the drummer especially the kick and it doesn't work.

I think Phil today sounds disjointed as there is only 1 drummer with Furthur.

[Rusty the Scoob]

I think both Bob and Phil are amazing musicians...but this might change the direction a bit...I love the space and the way they tied songs together in the late 70"s. So here's my question...was it Keith that made so much of that happen? Afterwards, it never quite seemed as fluid as it did in those days. Any thoughts?

Good thought, we're due for a new direction and the late 70's is my favorite era.

I think Keith's biggest strength was his subtlety and how he allowed Bobby's guitar to really shine, whereas Brent left him no space to really work once he got into Big B3 mode. He added a really nice introspective element, and found a great tonal niche where you could always hear him (until his real bad drug period of course) but he never took over.

It's a good question about why the late 70's were so good... Phil was at his drunkest and loosest, but the rest of the band was really tight and well-rehearsed from being in the studio where that producer really cracked the whip... I forget his name. I think they were also getting comfortable with the venues and the concert process - PA technology reached the point where they finally had decent monitors and didn't have the albatross of the WOS weighing them down, so the financial pressure was off them. They were all at a great age, too, mid 30's is often the peak for jazz musicians - it's a good balance of still having some youthful energy but you've had the time to develop maturity and knowledge.

In the 80's I think they started copying themselves badly... the smooth blending transitions of the 70's got replaced by quick perfunctory ones. The band and the audience all knew they were going into NFA for instance, so they quit bothering to really milk that jam, just for one example.

[Rusty the Scoob]

That sounds like just bad musicianship to me... even if you're Phil himself there are times to let yourself fade into the background. Really you should be hidden 80% of time at least. And when you choose to step out front a little, do it only when you have a good idea that doesn't clash with an idea that somebody else is having.

Even during the times when you're in the background it's ok to be doing something interesting, just make sure that it's less noticeable than whoever's in the lead at the moment.

I think alot of folks goto emulate Phil by being a lead instrument and not as linked to the drummer especially the kick and it doesn't work.

I think Phil today sounds disjointed as there is only 1 drummer with Furthur.

With Furthur I side with the popular opinion that Phil is On wtih a capital O. I think he's on fire right now. I wouldn't say Phil is disjointed, just jointed differently than most bass players.

I don't hear Phil as a lead instrument... I look at him as a Counterpoint instrument, providing a countermelody like the bass voice in a Bach fugue. Or more accurately music prior to Bach where all voices are weaving lines together independently but also harmonically. To do it right IMHO you have to really key in on what Jerry is doing, that's the interaction that matters most in the GD world if you want the music to sound right. If your bass player focuses on interacting with the drummer instead of Jerry it sounds more like JGB than GD, and if they focus too much on playing lead lines without listening to anybody else it sounds like crap.

[Rusty the Scoob]

Side note... I realy need to cut back on the afternoon caffeine.

[tigerstrat]

Late 70's can be a snooze for me. 68-74 and then 79-83 are my big eras

[Grateful Dad]

I just read the article, sounds like someone peed in Billy's Rice Crispies that day.

I really did not like the Haynes/Dead chemistry but when I heard Further was going to be using John K. my wife and I made the Asbury Park sunday show last year. All my favorites (Terrapin, Help OTW, Estimated into Cumberland AWESOME!). Saw them again this summer in Philly and it was good too. Sorry I missed the MSG shows they sounded hot.

But getting back to Billy saying John K. is not a great player I do differ, John K. is one poised young man. Imagine playing with Bob and Phil the way he does. Yea he's not Jerry nobody is, but I like JK's interpretation of the songs and the way he's developing his sound with Bob and Phil. I am glad Further is doing their thing.

I don't know what Billy is thinking but I hope he's not bitter at the rest of us having fun!

[Chuckles]

With Furthur I side with the popular opinion that Phil is On wtih a capital O. I think he's on fire right now. I wouldn't say Phil is disjointed, just jointed differently than most bass players.

I don't hear Phil as a lead instrument... I look at him as a Counterpoint instrument, providing a countermelody like the bass voice in a Bach fugue. Or more accurately music prior to Bach where all voices are weaving lines together independently but also harmonically. To do it right IMHO you have to really key in on what Jerry is doing, that's the interaction that matters most in the GD world if you want the music to sound right. If your bass player focuses on interacting with the drummer instead of Jerry it sounds more like JGB than GD, and if they focus too much on playing lead lines without listening to anybody else it sounds like crap.

BIG +1 on Phil's contrapuntal approach. The exceptional thing about it is that counterpoint is generally though of as a formal, if expansive in its possibilities, system. Phil's doing it on the fly. And mixing in Schoenberg's influence with dissonance. I think he's very focused and not just wandering aimlessly at all. And with Chimenti on keys, it opens up a whole other realm of possibilites - heard a Furthur Est > Eyes on Sirius this afternoon (don't know what show), and it was unlike any Eyes I'd ever heard before, completely unique.

And so too, I should add, does RtS play this way... very, very well. I really wish we'd had time to play that Eyes to end the post-Furthur thing back on the 19th. When my band plays it, we have to do the first solo following the E/B/A progression precisely because our bass player doesn't play counterpoint (not to worry: we're wierding him up) and bouncing between Emaj7 and Bm sounds like I'm just practicing scales otherwise, so we stick to a more - but not fully - melodic approach for that section. It's a matter of listening to your bandmates vs playing what is easier, and that's frustrating when we take the easy way out.

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled program, "Judging Billy"...

[Stevo123]

I wouldn't say phil sounds "disjointed" with Furthur at all. I'd say Phil is playing his absolute best right now. Bob is too, for that matter (now we just need him to be consistently mixed higher!).

I wish there were more bass players out there that were into the counterpoint idea. The type of improvisation those guys get into is simply not possible with most bassists out there. The drums really have to be played a certain way for that to work as well. To open things up the drummer has to go to a more pulse-by-pulse approach and allow the other musicians to determine which beats need emphasis based on where the melodic content is leading. I think Russo really excels at that, btw.

[Lunchbox16]

Rusty, all this talk about counterpoint makes me think you might have an instructional video topic on your hands. I don't know if that's something that can be easily demonstrated, but I've heard it talked about a lot in regards to Phil and never completely comprehended what it meant.

[strumminsix]

Rusty, all this talk about counterpoint makes me think you might have an instructional video topic on your hands. I don't know if that's something that can be easily demonstrated, but I've heard it talked about a lot in regards to Phil and never completely comprehended what it meant.

Same here! Lunchbox, here is my small, small bit of understanding:
The simplest example I've heard it the think of "row, row, row your boat" with 3 folks starting at different times

Phil talks about this in his book with an example, sorta like:
One guy is playing a line in 4, the other in 6, the other in 8 and the mega counterpoint resolution on 24.

then there is the contrary motion (one goes up, one goes done) - like in the pre-solo progression in Morning Dew! My favorite Philism!

(my understanding of this topic has now been extinguished)