When it doesn't fit anywhere else
 #172047  by Jon S.
 
Let's say you have an originals band, or are contemplating an album of originals, and you don't want to do any copyrighted covers but are open to traditional songs in the public domain. What comes first to mind as your faves?

Myself, my first such song is I Know You Rider. Myself, I often prefer playing it in A acoustically similar to how Jorma Kaukonen (Hot Tuna) does it. But I love the Grateful Dead's electric version in D, too.
 #172050  by Jon S.
 
I believe Deep Elem Blues is a traditional number, too.
 #172054  by Jon S.
 
I was not aware of such legalities. Thanks for bringing the concern to my attention. I’ll look into it.
 #172055  by Jon S.
 
Interesting.

On the first Tuna album, Know You Rider (no "I") is credited as traditional, arranged by Kaukonen, Casady.

On Europe '72, I Know You Rider is credited as Trad., arr. Grateful Dead.

So does this mean virtually if not actually every single one of us here technically owes royalties for our past performances of the song?!
 #172056  by lbpesq
 
I don't know about you, but I don't play Rider exactly, note for note, like anybody else. In fact, the Dead never played it exactly, note for note, twice. I suspect an arrangement copyright would need to be more specific than "Verse, Verse,Chorus, Verse, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus, repeat Chorus, out".

Bill, tgo
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 #172057  by Jon S.
 
So, I don't just play a lawyer on guitar forums - I am one. And I will tell you that the law, regs, and related federal guidance on when an arrangement is copyrightable (and by extension, how similar or different does an individual or band need to play a version of a traditional song that is itself in the public domain) are incomprehensibly vague to me. (Then again, perhaps I'm still not looking in the right place yet.)

If anyone else can translate the following with enough objectivity to enable actually determining at what point playing a song as close as possible to how another band arranged and played it crosses a line, I'm all ears.

SOURCE: Compendium of U.S. Copyright Practices : Chapter 800 Works of the Performing Arts - U.S. Copyright Office (https://www.copyright.gov/comp3/chap800 ... g-arts.pdf) - excerpts:

802.6(C) Musical Arrangements
When sufficient new harmonies or instrumentation are added to a preexisting musical
work, the musical arrangement may be registered as a derivative work.

802.6(C)(1) Harmonization
Harmonization is the addition of chords or musical lines to a melody. To be
copyrightable, the addition of chords to a melody must constitute sufficient new and
original authorship, not simply standard chords in common sequences such as C, F, G, C.
The harmonization of a melody using multiple musical lines involves additional
compositional creative factors, such as voicing and counterpoint.

Example:
• An applicant submits an application to register words and a musical
arrangement of a preexisting melody. The work is comprised solely
of the chord symbols C (major), Am (minor), Dm (minor), and G
(major) along with original words. The arrangement is not
registrable because this chord sequence is both standard and too
short to be sufficiently creative. The accompanying words, however,
may be registered if they are sufficiently creative.

802.6(C)(2) Instrumentation
Musical instrumentation or orchestration is the distribution or redistribution of
harmonic elements among different instruments. Instrumentation authorship may be
registered as a derivative work if the author added sufficient original authorship to the
preexisting work. Simply assigning entire lines from a preexisting work to new
instruments would not be considered sufficient new authorship, such as a four-part
choral work assigned without change to four brass instruments.

Examples of sufficient original authorship:
• An orchestration of a work originally composed for piano, such as
Debussy’s “Reverie.”
• A marching band arrangement of Beethoven’s String Quartet in G
Major, Opus 18, No. 2.
• A hip hop arrangement of a famous pop ballad.

802.6(D) Adaptations
A musical adaptation may be registered as a derivative work if the author contributed a
sufficient amount of original authorship to the preexisting musical work. An adaptation
may involve a reworking of the melody, rhythm, harmony, and/or lyrics in a preexisting
musical work that changes the style or genre of that work. It also may include a lyrical
adaptation of the text of a preexisting work, such as an adapted poem or adapted
Biblical text.
Examples:
• A hip hop musical based on a Bizet opera.
• A song based on a Shakespearean sonnet.

802.6(E) Variations
Variations usually consist of a theme followed by a number of changed or transformed
versions of that theme. A registration for this type of work covers the new music that
the author added to the work.

GLOSSARY
Derivative work: “A ‘derivative work’ is a work based upon one or more preexisting
works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization,
motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation,
or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work
consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications,
which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a ‘derivative work.’”
17 U.S.C. § 101.
 #172058  by Jon S.
 
Just found this website run by the U.S. Copyright Office. Check out this page - the Grateful Dead own multiple copyrights for different versions of I Know You Rider. NOT THAT THIS HELPS ANSWER THE QUESTION OF HOW CLOSE YOU CAN COVER THE VERSIONS WITHOUT TECHNICALLY BEING AFOUL OF THE RULES! :drink: For example, take a band like DSO who pride themselves on reproducing specific shows as precisely as possible. Do they need permission, or a mechanical or actual license (if I'm using those terms correctly), for each and every song they mimic?

https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebr ... =25&HIST=1

[ 1 ] I Know You Rider. Burning the Devil and 8 Other Unpublished Works. PAu004032795 2020
[ 2 ] I know you rider -- Business of the blues. / Roger Hurricane Wilson. SR0000286622 1998
[ 3 ] I know you rider. California bound / the Phil Salazar Band. SR0000063251 1984
[ 4 ] I know you rider -- Cheaper thrills / Big Brother and the Holding Company. SR0000329153 2000
[ 5 ] I Know You Rider. Day of the Dead Folio. SR0000797981 2016
[ 6 ] I know you rider. -- Dicks's picks : vol. 23 : Baltimore Civic Center, Baltimore MD 9/17/72. SR0000371169 2001
[ 7 ] I know you rider. -- Dicks's picks : vol. 24 : Cow Palace, Dale City CA 3/23/74. SR0000371168 2002
[ 8 ] I know you rider. Folksinger / Brian Clauss, vocals and hammered dulcimer. SR0000245940 1997
[ 9 ] I know you rider -- From that far. SR0000168538 1992
[ 10 ] I know you rider. -- Godzology. SR0000382139 2000
[ 11 ] I know you rider -- Grateful Dead, Fairgrounds Arena, Oklahoma City, OK, 10/19/73. SR0000335317 2000
[ 12 ] I know you rider -- Grateful Dead, Harpur College, Binghamton, NY, 5/2/70. SR0000335330 1997
[ 13 ] I know you rider -- Grateful Dead, Providence Civic, 6/26/74, Boston Garden, 6/28/74. SR0000335309 1998
[ 14 ] I Know You Rider. GRATEFUL DEAD ROAD TRIPS, Vol. 2 No. 3 (2 Disc Set) SR0000747257 2009
[ 15 ] I Know You Rider. GRATEFUL DEAD ROAD TRIPS, VOL. 3 NO. 4. SR0000747184 2010
[ 16 ] I Know You Rider. GRATEFUL DEAD ROAD TRIPS, VOL. 4 NO. 2 (3-Disc Set) SR0000747156 2011
[ 17 ] I know you rider -- Grateful Dead, Stanley Theater, Jersey City, 9/27/72. SR0000335324 1998
[ 18 ] I Know You Rider. GRATEFUL DEAD THREE FROM THE VAULT (2 DISC SET) SR0000747243 2007
[ 19 ] I know you rider -- Grateful Dead, Winterland Arena, SF, CA, 12/29/77. SR0000335323 1998
[ 20 ] I know you rider -- Hundred year hall / Grateful Dead. SR0000335320 1995
[ 21 ] I know you rider. I know you rider. PA0000839364 1996
[ 22 ] I know you rider. I know you rider. RE0000826420 1972
[ 23 ] I know you rider. I know you rider. Arr. Gale Garnett. RE0000588575 1964 See below (never heard this one before!)
[ 24 ] I know you rider I know you rider. By Jerome Garcia, Philip Lesh, Robert Weir, Ronald McKernan, William Kreutzmann & Keith Godchaux. PAu002131366 1972
[ 25 ] I know you, rider I know you, rider. w & m Judy Henske. RE0000530982 1963

 #172060  by lbpesq
 
Jon, as a lawyer I must inquire: is the above a list of copyrighted arrangements or a list of copyrighted recordings? Reading through your previous post, and some other info I found (I, too, did a little research on this), I suspect the Dead’s “arrangement” of IKYR isn’t unique enough to qualify for an arrangement copyright. However, their recording of it can certainly be copyrighted. In other words, I don’t think we owe them any money if we play the tune. Now when we cover Brown-Eyed Women at a gig, we probably do!

Bill, tgo
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 #172061  by strumminsix
 
Yup, watched a buddy struggle with that on a record he was recording. I recall something about doing a song that was "Traditional" but he used an arrangement similar to someone else who's commercialized that arrangement and blah blah rabbit hole shit above my head legal mumbo jumbo. But then talked about enforcement and case law and how ugly it is and often not worth the time and effort.

Was just saying it is something to be considered ESP when doing an all album of traditionals when obviously most of us were turned onto those songs by folks who have known arrangements.
 #172063  by Jon S.
 
lbpesq wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:30 pm Jon, as a lawyer I must inquire: is the above a list of copyrighted arrangements or a list of copyrighted recordings? Reading through your previous post, and some other info I found (I, too, did a little research on this), I suspect the Dead’s “arrangement” of IKYR isn’t unique enough to qualify for an arrangement copyright. However, their recording of it can certainly be copyrighted. In other words, I don’t think we owe them any money if we play the tune. Now when we cover Brown-Eyed Women at a gig, we probably do!
A list of copyrighted recordings, I believe. So I guess it's not relevant to the issue. It did point me to an early version of IKYR I'd never heard before (and don't necessarily need to hear again :biggrin: ).

And BTW, you got me to spit up my coffee with your last line!
 #172064  by Jon S.
 
strumminsix wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:37 amI recall something about doing a song that was "Traditional" but he used an arrangement similar to someone else who's commercialized that arrangement and blah blah rabbit hole shit above my head legal mumbo jumbo. But then talked about enforcement and case law and how ugly it is and often not worth the time and effort.
Understandable, and I may be reaching that point now, too. I've been thinking, for my next album (which I hope to record over the summer), I'd include one traditiona song, IKYR, but do a unique version whereby I segue from an initial acoustic version via a fade out to a fade in of an electric version. The problem (if it is one) is that I play the acoustic version similarly to Hot Tuna's version on Burgers and the electric version is similar to the Dead's. Generally, I'm a strong supporter of protecting musical rights so that working musicians can continue to earn a living in our digital age. But this issue is giving me a run for my money on it!
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 #172065  by Jon S.
 


 #172066  by Jon S.
 
Found this just now - versions of I Know You Rider in SONGVIEW (the combined ASCAP-BMI database):

https://www.ascap.com/repertory#/ace/se ... SVW&page=1

When I hit the Expand button for Jerome Garcia's version, the site shows the following as co-holders of the license, and then afterwards, other bands as "performers." These include Hot Tuna, whose version is nothing like the Dead's, and DSO, who do their best to copy it exactly.

ASCAP controls: 33.36%BMI controls: 0%
PRO IPI
DP NS 39657154
GARCIA JEROME J ASCAP 41050341
GODCHAUX KEITH R RICHARD NS 75682937
KREUTZMANN WILLIAM ASCAP 345452172
LESH PHILIP ASCAP 41054231
MAC KERNAN RONALD CHARLES R C NS 41553898
WEIR ROBERT HALL ASCAP 41063622

Publishers
ASCAP controls: 33.36%BMI controls: 0%
PRO IPI
ICE NINE PUBLISHING CO INC
Contact Info ASCAP 69167742

Performers
ALLMAN BROTHERS BAND
BIG HOUSE
CRADLE KIDS BIZ
DARK STAR ORCHESTRA
DEAD & COMPANY
DISCO BISCUITS AND BK AND THE KIDS
GRATEFUL DEAD
HOT TUNA
MOE.
OTHER ONES
PARTICLE
REVEREND FREAKCHILD
Alternate Titles
I KNOW YOU RIDER (LIVE)
I KNOW YOU RIDER (LULLABY VERSION)
I KNOW YOU RIDER [LIVE AT CHARLOTTE COLISEUM